This
post, by Figleaf, reminded me of an incident that happened in my town a few years back. While not the topic, per se, it raises many questions that I cannot easily answer.
The story as I heard it: A young woman, age 15 or 16 went to a very crowded high school party. She was drunk. Most the other partygoers were high school students and a couple were college age. Some young men, aged 15-18, were playing pool. A number of my daughter's friends were at the party. They all said that the girl came in totally smashed on her ass and kept going around asking the guys if she could suck their cock...that she wanted to fuck everyone there and wanted a gang bang. She was quite vocal about it. In the end, she got her gang bang, which continued after she passed out.
The following week at school, teachers heard students talking about the party and all that had happened. Eventually some counselor called the young woman in. Although hesitant at first, she conceded that the events had, in fact, taken place. My understanding is that she did not want to press charges, but she was not given that choice. A number of young men were arrested, the 18 year old taking the most heat because he was "of age" and it was considered statutory rape. The trial was not pretty.
It brought up all sorts of conflicting issues that have no resolution in my mind. I feel so much for the young woman. From all my daughter heard from her friends, this young woman wanted this. Yes, she was drunk, so not in her right mind. Yes, she is too young, in many ways, to be making healthy decisions for herself. But nothing about this situation is cut and dry.
I want to support her and every woman (and I see a 15 year old as a young woman) the right to a gang bang if they want one. I want her to celebrate her body in all the ways she feels she wants to. I don't know if she really wanted a gang bang. I don't know if that was the liquor speaking, if she had any idea what she was in for and was swayed by mass media to be more sexual than she wanted to be. Part of me worries that someone that young must not have too much going on for her inside herself if she would do this, but I do not want to make those generalizations. I know that a 15 year old does not have the ability to make many logical and healthy decisions becuase they don't have the wisdom experience brings. I know that a 50 year old can be the same.
If the woman clearly asks for it, talks about her desires, then initiates something, is this rape? Does the answer change if the woman is 15? I don't know if she felt raped or not. I don't know if something that was supposed to be fun turned ugly and she feels violated. I wonder if it had really been something that had gone ugly if the others at the party would have shifted from being sheep and to trying to stop what happened.
I wonder how the act of this will affect her in her future. Will it at all? Will only the aftermath and the reactions and actions of the elders around her affect her? Or did the whole thing traumatize her? Or did she like it and now is being shamed for her sexuality and being made to feel she is tainted or dirty? Will she, to save face, turn it into a rape in her mind and then have to deal with all that? And, if she liked it and did not see it as rape, will she, to avoid feeling like her sexuality is "wrong" make the young men there and men in her future "wrong" and have that affect her future ability to have a relationship? She really cannot "win" here.
I worry for her and how the community's reaction will stay with her throughout her life. The police and adults in this situation were horrified and considered her a victim, perhaps making her feel badly about it when she didn't. I heard no sympathy from the kids who felt like she was irresponsible, she went in to the party asking for what she got and deserves no pity. Truth is they felt more for the young men, like they were dragged into this and are now having to pay big time in many ways.
I feel for those young men. I in no way condone their behavior. I wonder who in the hell could do something like that if someone is obviously drunk out of their mind.
And what about the other partygoers? This was done right in the middle of the party, not hidden in some locked back room. I couldn't believe that all the people at the party just let this happen. Not ONE person thought to call their parents, not one teen there had enough trust to call when they saw something so obviously wrong going on here? What does that say about the relationship between parents and kids? Was it muddied by the fact that the girl had asked for a gang bang, making it clear to everyone at the party that this was her goal for the night? And, ok...well...maybe no one wanted to get a parent at a party where there was drinking and drugs going on when she was coherent. But come on...NO ONE did anything when she passed out?
And while I wonder where the fuck their minds went, I also understand that it is very difficult for a teen man with newly awakening sexuality and raging hormones who has been drinking to remember and act on his normal set of social constructs and boundaries. Alchohol reduces inhibitions. In this case pack mentality takes over. Yes, they were responsible and I would never want to suggest a "twinkie defense" here, but given that the girl was begging for a gang bang, given the situation in its entirety, I have a hard time making these young men into monsters. If they were older and had more maturity, the story would be different, but even the 18 year old is still a youngun here. It's not like these boys were mid twenties with experience under their belts taking advantage of someone many years younger.
I think this was a tragic event. I think that there were mistakes made by every person there, whether they engaged in the gangbang directly or not. I think everyone was stupid and are now having to live with being stupid. I am very conflicted in how it was handled by the school and parents. I know these things aren't easy to deal with and they bring up fears. But I am having a hard time feeling that it was handled in the best way for the long term outcome of all concerned.
I feel that a person has a right to stop sex at any time in the act and that if they are forced to continue when they don't want to, it is a rape. This story has lots of fuzzy aspects and considerations, but I have a hard time calling it a rape.
The story as I heard it: A young woman, age 15 or 16 went to a very crowded high school party. She was drunk. Most the other partygoers were high school students and a couple were college age. Some young men, aged 15-18, were playing pool. A number of my daughter's friends were at the party. They all said that the girl came in totally smashed on her ass and kept going around asking the guys if she could suck their cock...that she wanted to fuck everyone there and wanted a gang bang. She was quite vocal about it. In the end, she got her gang bang, which continued after she passed out.
The following week at school, teachers heard students talking about the party and all that had happened. Eventually some counselor called the young woman in. Although hesitant at first, she conceded that the events had, in fact, taken place. My understanding is that she did not want to press charges, but she was not given that choice. A number of young men were arrested, the 18 year old taking the most heat because he was "of age" and it was considered statutory rape. The trial was not pretty.
It brought up all sorts of conflicting issues that have no resolution in my mind. I feel so much for the young woman. From all my daughter heard from her friends, this young woman wanted this. Yes, she was drunk, so not in her right mind. Yes, she is too young, in many ways, to be making healthy decisions for herself. But nothing about this situation is cut and dry.
I want to support her and every woman (and I see a 15 year old as a young woman) the right to a gang bang if they want one. I want her to celebrate her body in all the ways she feels she wants to. I don't know if she really wanted a gang bang. I don't know if that was the liquor speaking, if she had any idea what she was in for and was swayed by mass media to be more sexual than she wanted to be. Part of me worries that someone that young must not have too much going on for her inside herself if she would do this, but I do not want to make those generalizations. I know that a 15 year old does not have the ability to make many logical and healthy decisions becuase they don't have the wisdom experience brings. I know that a 50 year old can be the same.
If the woman clearly asks for it, talks about her desires, then initiates something, is this rape? Does the answer change if the woman is 15? I don't know if she felt raped or not. I don't know if something that was supposed to be fun turned ugly and she feels violated. I wonder if it had really been something that had gone ugly if the others at the party would have shifted from being sheep and to trying to stop what happened.
I wonder how the act of this will affect her in her future. Will it at all? Will only the aftermath and the reactions and actions of the elders around her affect her? Or did the whole thing traumatize her? Or did she like it and now is being shamed for her sexuality and being made to feel she is tainted or dirty? Will she, to save face, turn it into a rape in her mind and then have to deal with all that? And, if she liked it and did not see it as rape, will she, to avoid feeling like her sexuality is "wrong" make the young men there and men in her future "wrong" and have that affect her future ability to have a relationship? She really cannot "win" here.
I worry for her and how the community's reaction will stay with her throughout her life. The police and adults in this situation were horrified and considered her a victim, perhaps making her feel badly about it when she didn't. I heard no sympathy from the kids who felt like she was irresponsible, she went in to the party asking for what she got and deserves no pity. Truth is they felt more for the young men, like they were dragged into this and are now having to pay big time in many ways.
I feel for those young men. I in no way condone their behavior. I wonder who in the hell could do something like that if someone is obviously drunk out of their mind.
And what about the other partygoers? This was done right in the middle of the party, not hidden in some locked back room. I couldn't believe that all the people at the party just let this happen. Not ONE person thought to call their parents, not one teen there had enough trust to call when they saw something so obviously wrong going on here? What does that say about the relationship between parents and kids? Was it muddied by the fact that the girl had asked for a gang bang, making it clear to everyone at the party that this was her goal for the night? And, ok...well...maybe no one wanted to get a parent at a party where there was drinking and drugs going on when she was coherent. But come on...NO ONE did anything when she passed out?
And while I wonder where the fuck their minds went, I also understand that it is very difficult for a teen man with newly awakening sexuality and raging hormones who has been drinking to remember and act on his normal set of social constructs and boundaries. Alchohol reduces inhibitions. In this case pack mentality takes over. Yes, they were responsible and I would never want to suggest a "twinkie defense" here, but given that the girl was begging for a gang bang, given the situation in its entirety, I have a hard time making these young men into monsters. If they were older and had more maturity, the story would be different, but even the 18 year old is still a youngun here. It's not like these boys were mid twenties with experience under their belts taking advantage of someone many years younger.
I think this was a tragic event. I think that there were mistakes made by every person there, whether they engaged in the gangbang directly or not. I think everyone was stupid and are now having to live with being stupid. I am very conflicted in how it was handled by the school and parents. I know these things aren't easy to deal with and they bring up fears. But I am having a hard time feeling that it was handled in the best way for the long term outcome of all concerned.
I feel that a person has a right to stop sex at any time in the act and that if they are forced to continue when they don't want to, it is a rape. This story has lots of fuzzy aspects and considerations, but I have a hard time calling it a rape.